Hi All. I have been watching a lot of House lately, and just started “Extrodinary Attorney Woo”. I am curious to know what you all think of their portrails of Autism. Is it pandering? Representation? Romantisation?
Also see “The Good Doctor”, “Atypical”, “Love on the spectrum” etc.
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While I know people have complaints about how it sometimes infantilizing and played for laughs et cetera, when I first watched Big Bang Theory back 2007 or so, it felt both like an eye-opener and deeply validating.
Sheldon doesn’t mask. He is not anxious. He is not ashamed of who he is. He never “learns to chill and be normal”. He is helpfully insightful at times. And he retains close friends who repsect him and he keeps a successful career. That was beautiful to see.
It made me believe I could exist as myself.
I know the “front lines” have moved since then, and most people expext more from representation, but I will ever be grateful for what that series gave me.
it felt both like an eye-opener and deeply validating.
Sheldon doesn’t mask. He is not anxious. He is not ashamed of who he is. He never “learns to chill and be normal”. He is helpfully insightful at times. And he retains close friends who repsect him and he keeps a successful career. That was beautiful to see.
It made me believe I could exist as myself.
I felt that way too when I first watched TBBT, since I watched it alone… Then I watched the show with other people in the room and realized that he was the butt of every joke. And from that point on I could never stomach watching the show again. It’s disgusting.
I felt the same about the constant homosexuality jokes about Howard and Raj.
The show just sucks.
Weirdly, I didnt even think of Big Bang Theory.
I dont think there is anything wrong with liking media that speaks to you.
I like that Sheldons Autism isn’t a “super power” like the Good Doctor. If a magic pill “cured” Sheldons autism, then he would still be a scientist. If a magic pill “cured” the good doctor, he becomes useless.
Fwiw, I am not on the spectrum.
I might have a different take, there is some pretty poor representation in media. Some of the best examples are not stated out loud. My issue is the discourse around it. Take “I am a surgeon” line from the Good Doctor. If you talk to an Autistic person the common complaint is the acting. Though the online discussion tends to be majority neurotypicals who are mocking the break down itself. There is no context of over stimulation and the disrespect he was feeling from his supervisor or whoever it was showing them.
My problem is all those things you are wondering plus it can be damaging and maddening. If you met one autistic person, who’ve met one autistic person and media does a piss poor job of representing this.
Agreed. I have been noticing more and more characters in shows/movies/games where they don’t explicitly say “THIS PERSON IS AUTISTIC!!”, you can just tell because of the things they do and the way they are. And to me, that’s the best form of representation, but unfortunately the fact these characters are autistic likely flies over the heads of the general populace because it’s never explicitly stated.
Do you have an example of such a character?
Dr. Brennan in Bones
Lilo from Lilo & Stitch
Captain Holt from Brooklyn 99
Peridot from Steven Universe
Futaba from Persona 5 (possibly other characters as well)
Steris from the Mistborn book series
And many more :)
This was a fantastic read, thanks for sharing!
Only one i’m familiar with is Holt, and I never considered them as autistic. That might reflect more on me though :)
Do you have an example of a good character represention?
I’m guessing it is very hard for a neurotypical actor/writer/director to correctly represent autism, as its not something they actually experience? So it ends up falling back to cliches?
It’s almost all clichés and stereotypes. Autistic people are the model disabled person in media the same way Asian people are the model minority. Autistic characters are almost exclusively difficult for neurotypical characters to connect with, they have some sort of “super power” (Sheldon Cooper and Quantum Physics, Shaun Murphy and the human body, Raymond Babbitt and counting cards, Gary Bell and wavelengths…), often having difficulty with eye contact, and usually with physical, visual, or auditory sensitivities.
I haven’t seen Woo but my mother who is an attorney with autism really likes it
First episode was good, I liked it. It felt to me like a Korean + Attorney version of “The Good Doctor”, but also very lighthearted.
@CameronDev@programming.dev I’ve never seen a kind, let alone helpful depiction of autism in media. And that’s even more awful considering how I’ve heard a lot of other autistic people become fixated on media and use it as a kind of social augmentation.
@CameronDev@programming.dev By the way, does anyone know if my Stars or Reaction from Misskey/Firefish/Mastodon will turn into upvotes on Lemmy/Kbin?
I have no idea, you can always try staring this comment and we can see? Hopefully no one else does.
@CameronDev@programming.dev It works! I put the thinking emoji on you and it became an upvote hehe
Hmm, thats really a shame. It seems that its getting very popular to include “autistic” characters into shows now, so it seems like they are trying, but failing (at least in your experience)?
@CameronDev@programming.dev Let me start you off with a view of the science today. A lot of women are undiagnosed with autism because one of the traits they look for is having difficulty with relationships. Autism is very poorly understood clinically. It’s not entirely the writers’ fault, if you follow autism research it’s chaotic and problematic because the origins as a childhood schizophrenia diagnosis and all the resources being centered around school age kids means loads of people are undiagnosed. However studies of self-reported autistics show almost identical spikes in suicide, homelessness, etcetera. I feel like focusing on autism as an inclusion and superpower thing informed by outdated science will do more harm than good. For the same reason why a lot of people strongly identified with the Aspergers label and it almost got a kind of vibe to it, like Sheldon from Big Bang theory. Some people feel they need to act more autistic so other people know how to treat them. That’s not as bad as TRYING TO HIDE it though!!! I just mean giving people an inaccurate bundle of traits as an identity is self-reinforcing and limiting, and causes issues with diagnosis.
It’s a very complex condition which encompasses varying disabilities especially if you are born with an unusually large or small skull!!! Some other genetic conditions always produce autism + another condition. My cousin sadly also had epilepsy and never progressed past age 12 mentally with autism whereas you and I can have a conversation. (Another reason why many people got attached to Aspergers as an “autism but functional” label and the resources around it)
Sorry for the long comment just trying to be specificYeah, i know its a complex and nuanced condition. And i didnt expect for media representations to please everyone, but was curious if they actually represented anyone, which it sounds like its a mixed bag.
I guess an upside to poor representation is that it at least provides some visibility, and can serve as a kick off point for further education/discussion?
I think lately it’s been nice to see more representation, however I wish there was better emphasis and explanation on why ASD individuals do or don’t do certain things.
For us with ASD, we immediately understand why certain behaviors are exhibited. We also understand why certain things are said, why people with ASD might get quiet in some situations, stimming, and more.
To others, it’s so easy to draw conclusions that the individual is stupid or has bad intentions, when the reality is polar opposite or more complex than that.
For example, with Love On The Spectrum, ASD individuals on a date will appear to:
- Suddenly lose interest
- Not take any initiative
- Unashamedly allow themselves to get distracted
- Say things that seem very inconsiderate
Someone that doesn’t understand ASD might assume the person with ASD is a bad, rude, inconsiderate jerk, maybe intentionally trying to act this way toward the other person. However, someone that does understand will immediately know that the ASD individual has:
- Gone through an observations checklist and considered all factors related to a potential relationship with this person
- Figured out exactly what they do and don’t like about this person’s interests and behaviors
- Methodically determined that the person they are dating will not be a good fit for them
Once someone with ASD has already figured that out, it’s a waste of time, energy, and emotions (as well as a waste of the other person’s) to continue talking with them, and it’s time to move on. It’s a completely different, highly-practical mindset that—although it doesn’t always consider how the other person feels—is well-meaning and has no bad intentions towards the other person.
I havent seen it (dating shows hold absolutely no interest for me), but I kinda assumed LotS to have commentary on the underlaying reasoning for certain behaviors. Thanks for your insight!
Good representations I’ve seen:
- Abed Nadir (Community)
- Tina Belcher (Bob’s Burgers)
- Jonah Byrde (Ozark)
- Woo Young-Woo (Extraordinary Attorney Woo)
These characters all made me feel validated and seen, while not being put in their respective shows only to make fun of them. Sometimes their autism is used to create humorous situations, like Tina and Young-Woo, but it’s never done in a mean-spirited way.
I’ve never gotten an acoustic vibe from Tina.
She really brings more of an electric energy to the show
I’ve only seen one episode of Woo, and it felt to me like they were treating her autism as a magical attorney super power. I wasnt sure if that was valued representation or not, hence the question. I guess its not wildly different to seeing neurotypical characters with extraordinary abilities. I did enjoy it though, and will keep watching.
Love me some Troy and Abed in the Mooorrrrninngg :D
I really loved Woo, partially because the show really takes the time to get into how she gets around things like sensory issues. She’s a savant, which is rare.
Woo definitely gets better, but you have to acknowledge that there are some “super power” autism people out there (I personally fall more on that side of the spectrum). That being said, they don’t shy away from the other side of the spectrum and they don’t claim that one kind of autist has more worth than another.
I was friends with a guy in my youth who definitely had savant aspects. Things he was interested in mostly. For example he loved cars. Not motorcycles, not big rigs, just cars.
In a 4 hour car ride he would look out the window and give details about the cars and at the end of the ride you could ask him about car models that we’d seen between certain mile markers. He had it all catalogued in his head and could tell you what order the cars were in, their color, year, options, weight, GVWR, motor type, style, transmission type, really just about anything.
Yeah, I get that its a spectrum, but I dont know the distribution, hence why I am seeking opinions here.
I guess i was just worried that it sets up an unrealistic expectation/stereotype, that may not be beneficial?
“Oh you have autism? Thats so cool, whats your super power?” - This kinda of thing. Kind of the Autism version of “Oh, your asian, you must be good at math”.
Ill definitely watch the rest of Woo anyway, I did enjoy the first episode.
Don’t worry, it definitely paints a complete picture. You’ll see once you reach episode 3. Episode 10 was my personal favourite though. It felt very validating seeing some of the struggles she experiences in that one.
Cool, good to know, thanks!
All of the Belchers are great representation, though none are canonically Autistic.
I <3 the belchers
They literally say Tina is autistic in the first episode of the show.
Louise: She’s autistic. She can’t help it.
Tina: Yeah, I’m Autistic.
Hugo: Bob.
Bob: Just a sec. No, you’re not autistic, Tina
Is that the reference? Cause that looks pretty definitively like a child mocking another child and not a diagnosis or canon confirmation. The only other reference in that episode is a callback joke to this bit.
Okay and the same could be said for Abed Nadir or Jonah Byrde, or basically any other character mentioned in this thread. But these characters are all obviously autistic coded in their respective shows. The reality is that show writers are extremely hesitant to make their characters explicitly autistic because then they have to treat that character as an ambassador for Autism.
Cool. See my first comment where I said all of the Belchers were good representation (meaning coded-as and good reps of) but not canonically autistic. So, what point were you trying to make?
Also, Abed is canonically Autistic, just not diagnosed (as per show runners)
House is not canonically autistic as far as I know. Of course, in TV writing, autism tends to be sloppily coded as “being an asshole” instead, and he definitely is that in spades. He does seem to slightly play into it in one random episode, and his boss says something along the lines of “you don’t even have Asperger’s!” The only unambiguous autist on House that I remember is the kid from that same episode, who is nonverbal and melts down over the slightest thing. As far as representation goes, that’s fairly narrow and not all that positive.
I watched The Good Doctor for about two and a half seasons. Eventually it started grinding my gears because it keeps being the exact same conflict over and over. (Ironic given I watched House, I know. Multiple times. Still.)
While whatshisface might be understandably “stuck”, all those highly trained medical professionals and romantic interests around him should probably eventually have gotten a clue about that whole autism thing. As representation goes this guy is also relatively out there, and plays up a lot of stereotypes that don’t seem entirely positive.
I do think the pandering/romanticization is kinda obvious in this, though: it plays up Super-Autist ideas, and makes sure there’s no shortage of pretty girls around - who tend seem rather more into autistic guys than I daresay seems likely in real life, for some reason.BBT I found mildly clever for like 5 whole seconds at the very start of episode 1. I don’t know why I watched a few seasons further.
I dislike Sheldon’s character. He is the archetype of the lazily written Hollywood “autist/smart guy/douchebag” pigeonhole, heavily playing into truckloads of strictly negative stereotypes about autists, smart people, geeks etc. and any combination. You know he’s smart because he has the whiteboard with Physics on it, and because he’s an asshole - one of very few ways TV writing tries to show intelligence at all.
Now I might seem butthurt - that would be because I started out with actual expectations of a “smart, geek-friendly” comedy show. Eventually I got more a bait&switch “cringe comedy” feeling (a genre I hate) with a superficially “geeky” paintjob.
Seems a bit pandery to me, mostly along the lines of antiintellectualism and “anti geek sentiment”.Your right House isn’t, but I had just watched the episode with the Autistic boy. I’m not sure if Dr Park was or just a bit weird?
I think the “no shortage of pretty girls attracted to the main character despite their red flags” is just a TV trope thing. House had it with Cameron, Cuddy etc, BBT was full of it.
I think BBT did the best they could at the time. If it had been a smart, geek friendly comedy it may not have been popular and might have been cancelled early. But all your critcisms are certainly valid.
Its a shame, doesnt sound like you feel particularly well represented by media.
Regarding “Love on the spectrum”, I found these videos very insightful:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_Y_5E5qRoY
I don’t have autism, and I have very limited exposure to anyone with autism, but I’ve found Love on the Spectrum to be amazingly humanizing. I feel like I’ve learned so much watching that show about the variety of internal dialogues and emotions people with autism experience, to the point where I’m more prepared to meaningfully interact in real life.
I only watched the first video you linked, and I couldnt disagree more with it. The guy with autism in this video feels awkward. He talks about this explicitly. He tells us about his anxieties and we watch him confront them and grow. I feel like I’ve learned so much from this show that would help me more effectively interact with someone with autism, where before, I might have struggled to know what to say or have felt awkward myself.
I’ve never once felt like Love on the Spectrum is exploitative or dehumanizing, but I’d bet $100 that other show they referenced is. The guy in the other show is supremely overconfident, and they probaby televise some incredibly toxic relationship dynamics. I would never in a million years watch that show. Is the guy who made the video you linked really comparing these two shows? Is he saying the portrayal of the overconfident dude is better? I just profoundly disagree.
Ultimately, I didn’t even notice they had switched the music until they told us they switched it, because both are just cheaply produced television soundtracks.
i AM autistic, and you said so many things i wanted to say.
i haven’t seen either show, so i can’t comment on the overall issues, and i’m fully aware that more context could completely change the situation.
but it’s a pet peeve of mine when people make “add-on” complaints or criticisms of a problematic thing anyway— nitpicking that distracts from the actual issues.
ANYWAY, as an autist, my reaction to the “awkward” seen was “omg, i feel you friend.” the music and editing highlighted the way he portrayed himself. it amplified his self-expression.
alex, meanwhile, got a treatment that made him look arrogant, shallow, and obnoxious— which was precisely how he behaved… or at least, that’s one way to look at it. because whether you think alex is “confident and sexy” or “an absolute tool” is actually quite dependent on your own biases and not necessarily the soundtrack.
(alex the bro could be a really fun guy, but my instinct would say that his action reel intro was mocking him, not celebrating him. most reality shows like that are seen as pretty “trashy” in my neck of the woods, and the cast is being mocked by default.)
I havent watched “Love on the spectrum”, so I have no real opinions on it. Those kind of shows do tend to end up being fairly exploitative anyway, so Im not suprised that that one also is the same way. Ill watch the videos tomorrow though when i have some free time. Thanks!
I watch the series, and videos like this make me frustrated. There are discussions to be had, but sifting for faults and focusing on them to such a degree that the entire thing just look like a pure evil plot isn’t going to encourage better representation.
The comment sections of these videos are just crab bucket hate parties.
We should criticize yes, but also encourage and celebrate anything that tries to be better than what we had.
TL;DW?
She just like me fr
Usually coded depictions of autism >>> canon depictions of autism.
It’s been almost a decade since I watched it (so my opinion might change on a rewatch now, and my memory isn’t perfect) but as I recall Saga Norén from the original Danish/Swedish version of The Bridge was a pretty good portrayal. At least as non-masking characters go.
Cant say I have seen that one, so I will take your word for it! Its tricky rewatching old shows now, societal values have changed significantly over the past couple of decades. Shows that were progressive for their time wont necessarily hold up to todays values.I try to keep that in mind when rewatching shows, as long as they werent blatently horrible for their time I can usually enjoy them.
I think it’s pretty widely available with English subtitles if you’re interested. There was also an American remake, but I don’t know whether the portrayal was as good there, I didn’t watch it.
Shows that were progressive for their time wont necessarily hold up to todays values.I try to keep that in mind when rewatching shows, as long as they werent blatently horrible for their time I can usually enjoy them.
Yeah for sure! I am pretty good at putting things in their historical context, so old media that would now be considered offensive or insensitive doesn’t bother me much on a first viewing. But rewatching things a decade or more later can be eye-opening (and almost differently difficult) because I’m not prepared for it.
Love on the Spectrum was fun to watch. The characters were vulnerable and real. They weren’t pretending to be something they’re not to seem like a more appealing romantic partner, which is how I’ve seen most NT dating shows play out. I remember that when I first started watching it, I thought, “Wow, how refreshing. Finally, a reality TV show about normal people.” Then, I realized I thought that because the show was about people like me, whereas most reality TV shows I’ve seen tend to have loud, reactive, and difficult characters that end up causing a lot of drama.
I’ve never really liked the Big Bang Theory though lots of people have recommended it to me. Something with the way they portray the characters feels off. It’s like they are too extreme or stereotypical, and we’re supposed to find that funny. Nope. Also, one of the characters, despite being autistic and me trying to understand him, is still a jerk.
So far, Atypical has been my favorite! The dude is soooo much like me. I loved it. It was so validating that I was just cracking up the whole time. I was like, “O.M.G!! Someone out there gets it too!” I binged watched that series in less than a week. My one complaint with the show is that the whole focus of the show is on autism rather than life in general. Rather than have an autistic character with their difficulties play out, the focus is often on autism. Everyone is frequently talking about autism. I get that’s the point of the show, and it seems like the show is more tailored to NT family members of auties, so that makes sense. I’m just sharing my opinion from my perspective. I still like it a lot though.
The other depictions I can think of are Forrest Gump and Rain Man. Before I knew I was autistic, my jerk of a father made me watch Rain Man and tried to get me to sympathize with Tom Cruise’s character, which I didn’t. I just felt bad for Raymond. Regarding Forrest Gump, I used to watch that movie like 4 times/year by myself. I did this before I knew I was autistic too. The things that appealed to me from the movie were seeing the progress of American culture throughout that time period, how simple Forrest was, and how he was just navigating the world. I also liked that despite everyone, including himself, thought that he was stupid, he reached great achievements! Medal of Honor, started a successful shrimping business, ran enough to motivate the country, etc. Yet, he stayed just as humble as he always was because to him, they weren’t extraordinary or special. He was just being himself ❤️
I would like to see a show with an autistic character that masks in most public places except for with family and close friends. It would also be nice if they didn’t discuss autism nearly all the time. Instead, the person has their struggles, but they learn to manage them and navigate life through processes, systems, and helpful friends. For example, the character is talking to someone that casually brings up a special interest, so the character drops an infodump bomb completely unaware the other person was not interested in that. The conversation goes awry, leaving the character confused. They later get home and run that interaction by an NT friend which interprets the NT meaning of the interaction. Or, they get home from masking at work and start stimming, singing, and talking to their fake audience. Maybe they complain every time they’re low on groceries and have to go to the market, then make a list categorized by aisle, and you see them go shopping with headphones on and sunglasses. Then, they eat the same thing for dinner all week. The point is to portray the autism in a way that shows our lives are different from NT lives, but that is not the central point. Kind of like if they made a show about a Black family in the US, they wouldn’t be talking about racism and affirmative action every single show. Yeah, they would experience it, but rather than make the topic the central point, we see how they experience and navigate it when it comes up, but the central focus is the family and their culture. I would loveeee something like that for autism!
The big bang theory is an abomination
I used to think that show was amazing a long time ago.
In terms of production and acting it’s not bad. The troubling aspect is the charactisation of the neurodivergent experience, as if it’s fun and games for all involved. We’re invited to believe that these scientists are blundering through life, oblivious to their dysfunction. The reality is that people like this are much more likely to be isolated and clinically depressed at the very least.
We don’t have to imagine a TV show where some other marginalised group is mocked because that material is filed in the historical archive, under the ‘unacceptably cruel and bigoted’ category.
Unless you have someone who is incredibly subtle with autism, it’s going to increase prejudice in many cases. For example, if all the autistic characters are weird and don’t make eye contact, it means they’re more likely to not be hired to quickly fired from retail type jobs.
