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Can we stop letting the actions of a few bad people be used to curtail our freedom on platforms we all use.
I don’t want the internet to end up being policed by corporate AIs and poorly implemented bots (looking at you auto-mod).
The internet is already a husk of what it used to be, what it could be. It used to be personal, customisable… Dare I say it; messy and human…
… maybe that was serving a need that now people feel alienated from. Now we live as corporate avatars who risk being banned every time we comment anywhere.
It’s tiresome.
Facebook and others actively promote harmful content because they know it drives interactions, I believe it’s possible to punish corps without making the internet overly policed.
I agree with you in spirit. The most common sentiment I see among the comments is not to limit what people can share but how actively platforms move people down rabbit holes. If there is not action on the part of the platforms to correct for this, they risk regulation which in turn puts freedom of speech at risk.
Honestly, good, they should be held accountable and I hope they will be. They shouldn’t be offering extremist content recommendations in the first place.
Good.
There should be no quarter for fascists, violent racist or their enablers.
Conspiracy for cash isn’t a free speech issue.
for fascists, violent racist or their enablers.
Take a good long look in the mirror (and a dictionary printed before 2005) before you say things like this.
Fuck off, symp.
Glow harder.
Sweet, I’m sure this won’t be used by AIPAC to sue all the tech companies for causing October 7th somehow like unrwa and force them to shutdown or suppress all talk on Palestine. People hearing about a genocide happening might radicalize them, maybe we could get away with allowing discussion but better safe then sorry, to the banned words list it goes.
This isn’t going to end in the tech companies hiring a team of skilled moderators who understand the nuance between passion and radical intention trying to preserve a safe space for political discussion, that costs money. This is going to end up with a dictionary of banned and suppressed words.
Plus more demands for brackdoors in encryption.
This is going to end up with a dictionary of banned and suppressed word
Do you have some examples?
It’s already out there. For example you can’t use the words “Suicide” or “rape” or “murder” in YouTube, TikTok etc. even when the discussion is clearly about trying to educate people. Heck, you can’t even mention Onlyfans on Twitch…
Heck, you can’t even mention Onlyfans on Twitch…
They don’t like users mentioning their direct competition
Add Fox news and Trump rallies to the list.
Don’t forget Marilyn Manson and videogames.
/s
Marilyn Manson led a charge to overthrow the government??
Doubt it. Last time I saw him on stage, he made trump look like an eloquent speaker.
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Because I don’t like than an artist I once enjoyed is a drugged out and drunken mess? Based on the reaction it definitely sounds like it.
Didn’t think that many lemmings likes washed up has been metal acts, but to each their own I guess.
I actually responded to the wrong person and I apologize. I’ve actually heard the same thing about MM lately – just washed-up and sad.
Idk why you’re getting downvoted for an obvious joke lol
Because it’s not funny or relevant and is an attempt to join two things - satanic panic with legal culpability in social media platforms.
Not relevant?
Metal music and videos games have been blamed for mass shootings before.
And this is neither of those things. This is something much more tangible, with actual science behind it.
Yes, that exactly is the point.
How people who supposedly care for children’s safety are willing to ignore science and instead choose to hue and cry about bullshit stuff they perceive (or told by their favourite TV personality) as evil.
Have you got it now? Or should I explain it further?
Didn’t expect Lemmy to have people who lack reading comprehension.
People don’t appreciate having spurious claims attached to their legitimate claims, even in jest. It invokes the idea that since the previous targets of blame were false that these likely are as well.
They’re all external factors. Music and videogames have been (wrongly, imo) blamed in the past. Media, especially nowadays, is probably more “blameable” than music and games, but i still think it’s bs to use external factors as an excuse to justify mass shootings.
What are the internal factors of a person that are not influenced by the environment or culture?
I don’t understand how a social media company can face liability in this circumstance but a weapons manufacturer doesn’t.
As much as I believe it is a breeding ground for right wing extremism, it’s a little strange that 4chan is being lumped in with these other sites for a suit like this. As far as I know, 4chan just promotes topics based on the number of people posting to it, and otherwise doesn’t employ an algorithm at all. Kind of a different beast to the others, who have active algorithms trying to drive engagement at any cost.
Excuse me what in the Kentucky fried fuck?
As much as everyone says fuck these big guys all day this hurts everyone.
I agree with you, but … I was on reddit since the Digg exodus. It always had it’s bad side (violentacrez, jailbait, etc), but it got so much worse after GamerGate/Ellen Pao - the misogyny became weaponized. And then the alt-right moved in, deliberately trying to radicalize people, and we worked so. fucking. hard to keep their voices out of our subreddits. And we kept reporting users and other subreddits that were breaking rules, promoting violence and hatred, and all fucking spez would do is shrug and say, “hey it’s a free speech issue”, which was somewhere between “hey, I agree with those guys” and “nah, I can’t be bothered”.
So it’s not like this was something reddit wasn’t aware of (I’m not on Facebook or YouTube). They were warned, repeatedly, vehemently, starting all the way back in 2014, that something was going wrong with their platform and they need to do something. And they deliberately and repeatedly choose to ignore it, all the way up to the summer of 2021. Seven fucking years of warnings they ignored, from a massive range of users and moderators, including some of the top moderators on the site. And all reddit would do is shrug it’s shoulders and say, “hey, free speech!” like it was a magic wand, and very occasionally try to defend itself by quoting it’s ‘hate speech policy’, which they invoke with the same regular repetitiveness and ‘thoughts and prayers’ inaction as a school shooting brings. In fact, they did it in this very article:
In a statement to CNN, Reddit said, “Hate and violence have no place on Reddit. Our sitewide policies explicitly prohibit content that promotes hate based on identity or vulnerability, as well as content that encourages, glorifies, incites, or calls for violence or physical harm against an individual or group of people. We are constantly evaluating ways to improve our detection and removal of this content, including through enhanced image-hashing systems, and we will continue to review the communities on our platform to ensure they are upholding our rules.”
As someone who modded for a number of years, that’s just bullshit.
Edit: fuck spez.
Yep that’s how the Nazis work on every site. The question is who lets them on these sites so easily to do this work on society. And why do sites fight for them to stay? Are Nazis high up in government? Is it the wealthy? Probably something like that.
Part of the reason they get so high up on nerd sites (And Reddit at least started as a nerd site) is that they hunger for power, and the right people are too shy to seek power themselves.
This would all be greatly relieved if communities asked for communities to nominate other members, and asked for the type of folks who are the types who would mostly only consider the position of asked/ or if they were write-ins.
People with the capacity but are looked over because they maybe lack the ego or self confidence to take such power.
This works especially well in smaller communities under 4K users or so, which kinda falls apart in our Big Internet world, sadly…
hate and violence are bad unless we make money, then its ok.
The first thing that came to mind when I saw Reddit was The_Donald.
Nice, now do all regigions and churches next
Love Reddit’s lies about them taking down hateful content when they’re 100% behind Israel’s genocide of the Palestinians and will ban you if you say anything remotely negative about Israel’s govenment. And the amount of transphobia on the site is disgusting. Let alone the misogyny.
Do you mean “behind” like responsible for or in favor of?
I think from context we can assume in favor of. I don’t think anyone is accusing Reddit of masterminding the Gaza conflict. I haven’t been to /r/conspiracy in a while through.
In favor of. As in they support Israel unquestioningly. Though as someone else commented I wouldn’t put anything past r/conspiracy these days.
Lol, yeah I moderated major trans subreddits for years. It was entirely hit and miss if we’d get support from the admins
What an excellent presedent to set cant possibly see how this is going to become authoritarian. Ohh u didnt report someone ur also guilty cant see any problems with this.
Ohh u didnt report someone ur also guilty cant see any problems with this.
That’s… not what this is about, though?
“However, plaintiffs contend the defendants’ platforms are more than just message boards,” the court document says. “They allege they are sophisticated products designed to be addictive to young users and they specifically directed Gendron to further platforms or postings that indoctrinated him with ‘white replacement theory’,” the decision read.
This isn’t about mandated reporting, it’s about funneling impressionable people towards extremist content.
And they profit from it. That’s mentioned there too, and it makes it that much more infuriating. They know exactly what they’re doing, and they do it on purpose, for money.
And at the end of the day, they’ll settle (who are the plaintiffs? Article doesn’t say) or pay some relatively inconsequential amount, and they’ll still have gained a net benefit from it. Another case of cost-of-doing-business.
Would’ve been free without the lawsuit even. Lives lost certainly aren’t factored in otherwise.
U can make any common practice and pillar of capitalism sound bad by using the words impressionable and extremist.
If we remove that it become: funnelling a market towards the further consumption of your product. I.e. marketing
And yes of cause the platforms are designed to be addictive and are effective at indoctranation but why is that only a problem for certain ideologies shouldnt we be stopping all ideologies from practicing indoctranation of impressionable people should we not be guiding people to as many viewpoints as possible to teach them to think not to swallow someone elses ideas and spew them back out.
I blame Henry Ford for this whole clusterfuck he lobbied the education system to manufacture an obedient consumer market and working class that doesnt think for itself but simply swallows what its told. The education system is the problem anything else is treating the symptoms not the disease.
If we remove that it become: funnelling a market towards the further consumption of your product. I.e. marketing
And if a company’s marketing campaign is found to be indirectly responsible for a kid shooting up a grocery store, I’m sure we’ll be seeing a repeat of this with that company being the one with a court case being brought against them, what even is this argument?
Isnt the entire gun market indirectly responsible, what about the food the shooters ate? Cant we use the same logic to prssecute anyone of any religion cos most of the religiouse texts support the killing of some group of people.
Its convenient to ask what the argument is when u ignore 60% of it
Did you even read the article we’re discussing, or are you just reading the comments and getting mad?
- No decision has been made. This is simply a judge denying the companies’ motion to have this thrown out before going to trial.
- This is very much different than “the gun market” being indirectly responsible. This is the equivalent of “the gun market” constantly sending a person pamphlets, calling them, emailing them, whatever else, with propaganda until they ultimately decided to act on it. If that was happening, I think we’d be having the same conversation about that, and whether they should be held accountable.
- Whether they’re actually responsible or not (or whether any group is) can be determined in court following all the usual methods. A company getting to say “That’s ridiculous, we’re above scrutiny” is dangerous, and that’s effectively what they were trying to do (which was denied by this judge.)
That means that the government is injecting itself on deciding what “extremist” is. I do not trust them to do that wisely. And even if I did trust them, it is immoral for the state to start categorizing and policing ideologies.
That is generally what Governments do. They write laws that say … you can do this but not that. If you do this thats illegal and you will be convicted. Otherwise you wouldnt be able to police things like Mafia and drug cartels. Even in the US their freedom of speech to conspire to committe crimes is criminalised. There is no difference between that and politically motivated ‘extremists’ who conspire to commit crimes. The idealogy is not criminalised the acts that groups plan or conduct are. You are totally fine saying . I dont like x group.
What its not ok to say is . Lets go out and kill people from x.group.
The problem is that social media sites use automated processes to decide which messages to put in front of users in the fundamentally same way that a newspaper publisher decides which letters to the editor they decide to put in their newspaper.
Somehow though Tech companies have argued that because their is no limit on how many posts they can communicate amd hence theoretically they arent deciding what they put in and what they done, that their act of putting some at the top of people’s lists so they are seen is somehow different to the act of the newspaper publisher including a particular letter or not …but the outcome is the same The letter or post is seen by people or not.
Tech companies argue they are just a commutation network but I never saw a telephone, postal or other network that decided which order you got your phone calls, letters or sms messages. They just deliver what is sent in the order it was sen.
commercial social media networks are publishers with editorial control - editorial control is not only inclusion/exclusion but also prominence
There is a fundamental difference in Lemmy or Mastodon in that those decisions (except for any moderation by individual server admins) dont promote or demote any post so therefore dont have any role in whether a user sees a post or not.
Do you understand you’re arguing for violent groups instigating a race war?
Like, even if you’re ok with white people doing it, you’re also saying ISIS, MS13, any fucking group can’t be labeled violent extremists…
Some “ideologies” need to be fucking policed
Some “ideologies” need to be fucking policed
Someone wants to start with yours, and they have more support than you know. Be careful what you wish for.
Guess we shouldn’t ever do anything about anything, ever.
Big difference between policing actions and policing thoughts. Declaring some thoughts as verboten and subject to punishment or liability is bad.
It’s insane you’re being downvoted by people who would be the first ones silenced.
You really think they’re going to use this for himophobes and racists instead of anyone calling for positive socia6 change?
Did you not see any of history?
Ur missing the point violence should absolutly be policed. Words ideas ideology hell no let isis, ms13, the communists, the nazis, the vegans etc etc etc say what they want. They are all extremists by some definition let them discuss let them argue and the second someone does something violent lock em for the rest of their lives simple.
What you are suggesting is the policing of ideology to prevent future crime their is an entire book about where that leads to said book simply calls this concept thought crime.
anarchists have had to deal with this for over a century. the state can go fuck itself.
umm… isnt the government or rather the judikative already deciding what extremist is?
How would specifically this be different?I can understand the problems thos causes for the platforms, but the government injecting decisions is something you focus on?
Not to forget the many other places they inject themselves… one could say your daily lifes because… careful now… you live in the country with a government, whaaat?The government is already the one who makes that decision. The only thing new here is a line being drawn with regards to social media’s push towards addiction and echo-chamberism.
Youtube Shorts is the absolute worst for this. Just recently it’s massively trying to push transphobic BS at me, and I cannot figure out why. I dislike, report and “do not recommend this channel” every time, and it just keeps shoving more at me. I got a fucking racist church sermon this morning. it’s broken!
Don’t dislike it just hit do not recommend, also don’t open comments - honestly the best way is just to skip past as fast as you can when you set one, the lower time with it on your screen YNt less the algo thinks you want it.
I never really see that on YouTube unless I’ve been on related topics recently and it goes pretty quick when you don’t interact. Yes it’s shifty but they’re working on a much better system using natural language with an llm but it’s a complex problem
I am not discounting anyone’s experience. I am not saying this isn’t happening. But I don’t see it.
LiberalGunNut™ here! You would think watching gun related videos would lead me down a far-right rabbit hole. Here’s my feed ATM.
Meh. History, gun comparisons, chemistry, movies, whatever. Nothing crazy. (Don’t watch Brandon any longer, got leaning too right, too political. Video’s about his bid for a Congressional seat in Texas. Not an election conspiracy thing. Don’t care.)
If anyone can help me understand, I’m listening. Maybe I shy away from the nutcase shit so hard that YouTube “gets” me? Honestly don’t get it.
So that looks like main long form content. I’m specifically talking about youtube shorts which is Google’s version of TikTok
Imagine watchibg let alone even having the option for shorts. Get newpipe there is a sponsorblock version on fdroid no shorts no google tracking no nonsence u dont get comments tho but whatever. It also supports peertube which is nice.
Report for what? Sure disagree with them about their bullshit but i dont see why u need to report someone just cos u disagree with their opinions.
Imagine watchibg let alone even having the option for shorts.
I like shorts for the most part
Report for what?
Misinformation and hatespeech mostly. They have some crazy, false pseudoscience to back their “opinions” and they express them violently. Like it or not, these videos “promote hatred against a protected group” and are expressly against youtube TOS. Reporting them is 100% appropriate.
I can strongly reccommwnd stop watching ahort form content it has been proven to caise all sorts of mental issues.
Fair. Also what is a “protected group” what makes it any different from any other grouping?
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You could make a good point with better spelling, grammar, and word choice.
Yes i could. I could spend the extra 30seconds fixing it or i could not bother and still have my point comprehendable.
unpossible
I gave up reporting on major sites where I saw abuse. Stuff that if you said that in public, also witnessed by others, you’ve be investigated. Twitter was also bad for responding to reports with “this doesnt break our rules” when a) it clearly did and b) probably a few laws.
I gave up after I was told that people DMing me photographs of people committing suicide was not harassment but me referencing Yo La Tengo’s album “I Am Not Afraid Of You And I Will Beat Your Ass” was worthy of a 30 day ban
I remember one time somebody tweeted asking what the third track off Whole Lotta Red and I watched at least 50 people get perma’d before my eyes.
The third track is named Stop Breathing.
I TAKE MY SHIRT OFF AND ALL THE HOES STOP
BREATHIN’accessing their Twitter accounts WHEH? 🧛♂️🦇🩸sLatt! +*
On youtube I had a persistent one who only stopped threatening to track me down and kill me (for a road safety video) when I posted the address of a local police station and said “pop in, any time!”
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That’s true, but a lotnof things are illegal eeverywhere. Sexual Harassment or death treads will get you a lawsuit in probably every single country of the world.
Lawsuits are for civil cases. If someone breaks a law, they’re charged by authorities at their discretion.
Laws against threats to kill, rape and assault tend to be pretty constant across the world… 🤷♂️
Americans online regularly tell me that that’s protected free speech down there! Haha
Right in the IPO price!
I don’t understand the comments suggesting this is “guilty by proxy”. These platforms have algorithms designed to keep you engaged and through their callousness, have allowed extremist content to remain visible.
Are we going to ignore all the anti-vaxxer groups who fueled vaccine hesitancy which resulted in long dead diseases making a resurgence?
To call Facebook anything less than complicit in the rise of extremist ideologies and conspiratorial beliefs, is extremely short-sighted.
“But Freedom of Speech!”
If that speech causes harm like convincing a teenager walking into a grocery store and gunning people down is a good idea, you don’t deserve to have that speech. Sorry, you’ve violated the social contract and those people’s blood is on your hands.
This may seem baseless, but I have seen this from years of experience in online forums. You don’t have to take it seriously, but maybe you can relate. We have seen time and time again that if there is no moderation then the shit floats to the top. The reason being that when people can’t post something creative or fun, but they still want the attention, they will post negative. It’s the loud minority, but it’s a very dedicated loud minority. Let’s say we have 5 people and 4 of them are very creative time and funny, but 1 of them complains all the time. If they make posts to the same community then there is a very good chance that the one negative person will make a lot more posts than the 4 creative types.
Oh absolutely, and making something creative takes days, weeks, months.
Drama, complaining, conspiracy theorizing, and hate-videos take a few minutes to make more than the video itself lasts.
“But freedom of speech”
If that speech causes harm like convincing a teenager walking into a grocery store and gunning people down is a good idea, you don’t deserve to have that speech.
In Germany we have a very good rule for this(its not written down, but that’s something you can usually count onto). Your freedom ends, where it violates the freedom of others. Examples for this: Everyone has the right to live a healthy life and everyone has the right to walk wherever you want. If I now take my right to walk wherever to want to cause a car accident with people getting hurt(and it was only my fault). My freedom violated the right that the person who has been hurt to life a healthy life. That’s not freedom.
Very reasonable, close to the “Golden Rule” concept of being excellent to each other
In Canada, they have an idea called “right to peace”. It means that you can’t stand outside of an abortion clinic and scream at people because your right to free speech doesn’t exceed that person’s right to peace.
I don’t know if that’s 100% how it works so someone can sort me out, but I kind of liked that idea
Not just “remain visible” - actively promoted. There’s a reason people talk about Youtube’s right-wing content pipeline. If you start watching anything male-oriented, Youtube will start slowly promoting more and more right-wing content to you until you’re watching Ben Shaprio and Andrew Tate
it legit took youtube’s autoplay about half an hour after I searched “counting macros” to bring me to american monarchist content
Oh are we doing kings now?
Vote for me for King, I’ll make sure there’s a taco truck on every corner.
I’ll vote for you if you make me the Marquess of Michigan
… Deal. But I reserve the right to turn the upper peninsula in to my own personal resort.
Deal, but Michigan gets Cleveland then. I feel like Cleveland for the UP is a fair trade
That’s actually a great idea. I’ve always been a fan of the Browns.
YouTube is really bad about trying to show you right wing crap. It’s overwhelming. The shorts are even worse. Every few minutes there’s some new suggestion for some stuff that is way out of the norm.
Tiktok doesn’t have this problem and is being attacked by politicians?
I got into painting mini Warhammer 40k figurines during covid, and thought the lore was pretty interesting.
Every time I watch a video, my suggested feed goes from videos related to my hobbies to entirely replaced with red pill garbage. The right wing channels have to be highly profitable to YouTube to funnel people into, just an endless tornado of rage and constant viewing.
One thing to consider is that conservatives are likely paying for progressives to see their content, and geeks tend to have liberal views and follow the harm principle without many conditions.
Otherwise, it really shows the demographics of the people who play Warhammer. Before my sister transitioned, she played Warhammer and was a socialist but had a lot of really wehraboo interests. She has been talking about getting back into it, but she passes really well and imagines how it would go with the neckbeards.
The algorithm is, after all, optimized for nothing other than advertisements/time period. So long as the algorithm believes that a video suggestion will keep you on the website for a minute more, it will suggest it. I occasionally wonder about the implications of one topic leading to another. Is WH40k suggested the pipeline by demographics alone or more?
Irritation at suggestions was actually what originally led me to invidious. I just wanted to watch a speech without hitting the “____ GETS DUNKED ON LIKE A TINY LITTLE BITCH” zone. Fuck me for trying to verify information.
What about youtube? That had actually paid those people to spread their sick ideas, making the world a worst place and getting rich while doing it.
YouTube will actually take action and has done in most instances. I won’t say they’re the fastest but they do kick people off the platform if they deem them high risk.
Ok…don’t complain to me later when the thing you like gets taken down.
